[Rabbi Fruman passed away today. In his memory the following is an
interview with him from almost 12 years ago]

Interview: Rabbi Menachem Fruman - permanent peace not possible

Aaron Lerner Date: 17 May 2001

IMRA interviewed Rabbi Menachem Fruman of Tekoa in Hebrew on 17 May 2001:

IMRA: In the course of your discussions with Moslem religious leaders have
you come across anyone who agreed to Jewish prayer in the Cave of the
Patriarchs in Hebron?

Fruman: I never asked in such a specific way. I never asked.

IMRA: I see that you have had many interviews in which you advance the
position that the religious leadership can bring the two nations to peace.

Fruman: Perhaps. Yes.

IMRA: Let us put it this way: that they would have better chances than
politicians.

Fruman: Yes. I have said this more many years.

IMRA: But specific matters - for example if it would at all be possible,
from the standpoint of Islamic religious law, for Jews to pray in the Cave
of the Patriarchs - this never came up in conversations.

Fruman: I do not recall ever talking about the Cave of the Patriarchs.

Fruman: Or even the Temple Mount.

Fruman: According to Moslem law there is the idea that the follower of
another religion may not pray inside a mosque. There are those who study
Islamic religious law who say that this prohibition, which is not from the
beginnings of Islam, originated from the Cave of the Patriarchs. The Cave
of the Patriarchs switched hands many times - mostly between the Christians
and the Moslems - from a church to a mosque etc. and there are those who say
that the entire prohibition originally applied only to the Cave of the
Patriarch. Of course, if you ask a Moslem today he would tell you that the
prohibition applies to all mosques. But these researchers maintain that a
caliph here first set the rule prohibiting non-Moslems from praying at the
Cave of the Patriarchs and it was generalized.

IMRA: That is to say that if your approach is that religious leadership can
bring peace and understanding then that is within the framework that the
Jews forego praying at the Cave of the Patriarchs.

Fruman: No. I answered what you asked.

IMRA: Well, you say that religious leaders can bring peace yet you also said
that under their religious law, it is prohibited for Jews to pray there.

Fruman: You have to understand how religious law works.

IMRA: I know that that when I interviewed Rantisi - Hamas spokesperson, the
Mufti of Jerusalem and the Mayor of Hebron they all said the same thing:
Jews can visit as tourists but they cannot pray there.

Fruman: Religion can be the expression of the greatest extremism and the
greatest liberalism. If you ask a religious leader what the religious law
says you will get the most dogmatic answer. But religious law is exactly
the mechanism for bringing dogma face to face with reality.

Take the example of the prohibition of non-Moslem prayer in mosques we just
spoke about. Religious law changed to adapt itself to the situation. That
is how there is new religious law.

For example, religious leaders issued a fatwa (religious ruling) to Sadat
that permitted him to make peace with Israel.

IMRA: That fatwah happened to permit it under the balance of power at the
time and made it clear that should the balance of power change in the future
that Egypt should abandon the agreement. So it was a tactical move.

Fruman: Yes. But all of religious law is tactical. Every ruling is subject
to the forces at the time. The entire holiness of Jerusalem in Islam is the
result of the war between Islam and the crusaders. Everything stems from
tactics.

There is the Jewish saying that "the Torah was not given to the angels". I
deal daily as a rabbi with people whose problems are tactical - not problems
in principle.

IMRA: This fatwah, of course was not pro-peace. Since it made clear that
when the day would come that the balance of power would be in their favor
that they would do what they really should do.

Fruman: Correct. Correct. I also think that the day will come and the
Messiah will be here and things will be completely different. I for
example, believe that ultimately when the messiah comes that the mosques on
the Temple Mount will be replaced by a Temple. That ultimately I will
realize my most maximalist dreams.

This is what allows for flexibility in the meantime. The fact that a
religious person can have an absolutist ideal that he can postpone.

When I meet with leaders of other faiths they always like it when I end by
saying "I believe in God and you believe in God - we will let God do the
job."

IMRA: Of course, from a practical standpoint, this means that the
"appropriate security arrangements" that are required are more stringent
since it is a world that is tactical rather than a world in which one has
"peace for generations".

Fruman: Exactly. The advantage of negotiations between religious people is
that it is not between people who think that they are negotiating over
permanent conditions.

The Moslems say "Allahu Akbar" - Allah is the biggest. Bigger than the
rabbis and bigger than the Moslem religious leaders. Fatwahs end with this
declaration, with the meaning that Allah can always change the ruling in the
future.

That is why I never ask a religious leader what the religious law is and
instead consider what can be done in the meantime. After all, according to
Islamic law the Jewish State has no right to exist.

Consider even the Mufti of Jerusalem. Ask him if Jews can pray on the Temple
Mount and he will say "absolutely not" but if Arafat tells him to say
something else he will say something else. I know him well.

Dr. Aaron Lerner, Director
IMRA (Independent Media Review & Analysis)
(mail POB 982 Kfar Sava)
Tel 972-9-7604719/Fax 972-3-5480092
INTERNET ADDRESS: imra@netvision.net.il
pager 03-6750750 subscriber 4811
Website: http://www.imra.org.il